Because in those days, you had to have the paper, you know; not everybody was online. The Frick's very focal; they're very small; they're very focal. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean you went down at 15? They were phenomenal art collectors. So I came to that same point, that same impasse, in stamp collecting, where, okay, I have every single U.S. issue, except for these 27. And, you know, I basically said, you know, "Is there anything you'd like from me?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. [Affirmative.] [00:20:00]. And so I painted one Madonna and Child with pickles and fruit [they laugh], which is the Carlo Crivelli typical. Other people who you could talk to about becomingabout this passion? So, you know, we can fight that territory one collector at a time, and if that means a deep engagement with one person to try to interest them in something that we think will be rewarding for them, JUDITH RICHARDS: I assume participating in art fairs is a way of broadening your audience, JUDITH RICHARDS: Perhaps collaborations within some other [00:46:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: symposium or whatever you can imagine doing, JUDITH RICHARDS: that will bring in people andyeah, and then convert that, JUDITH RICHARDS: current interest in only contemporary and Modern to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, our first TEFAF, for which we received some praise and some criticismwhich is exactly what I wantas the radio personality says, "One star or five stars, and nothing in between." The angels that were inI believe it was The Adoration of Mary of Egypt, or Maryit was Mary of Egypt, The Last Communion of [Saint] Mary of Egypt. arugula, potato and green bean salad . Have there been particular trips that have been important to you oror in another way, how does travel impact your collecting? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. [1:02:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's by Antonio de Pereda. And then we. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the story is, I would say, more humorous than anything else, because my thought was that someday, when I was an old lonely geezer, I would have an antique shop, or I would sell bric-a-brac. So, you know, we may not necessarily be the origin of all the writings, but we're a part of it, so we can contribute to, you know, the fundraising effort to write a catalogue, and we can give the pictures; we can do this; we can do that. So, yes, I mean, obviously there is this interplay between the marketplace and the art historical importance. CLIFFORD SCHORER: This was my father's side. JUDITH RICHARDS: Right. And one professor in particular became a very close friend. We started talking at five o'clock at TEFAF; we finished the next morning at 9 a.m. And I finally saidI said, "Look, how much is it going to cost me, and can I take you to lunch, or, you know, what is it going to take me to get in there?" And it wasn't mine. Very nice man, and very giving of his time, very kind person. I sold it all. Antioch. JUDITH RICHARDS: or show people the works there? And we can coverbecause between the three of us going through a catalogue, we will isolate out the nine things worth sharing, and then we share those nine things, and then we comment on them, like attribution comments, back and forth. But has there been an increase in some competition, or the alternative? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it's very unusual forwell, when you talk about old art, and you talk about a, you know, an institutional collection, I know, for example, Worcester Art Museum has a policy, as do most American museums, you cannot lend to. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And actually go to the apartments where they were. You're going into someone else's space to show an artwork. So it wasn't that I had a great knowledge; it's just that I thought Boston was very beautiful. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mentioned the Snyders House, the Rubens House, and one more. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. It was supposed to be a project of six months to write a programan interface programfor the new IBM XT, which was in beta test back then. ], I mean, I remember I got it back to Boston, and it was hangingit's hanging in the photos. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, that's very frustrating. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, I thought it was great, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was a willful and independent child. I enjoyed Richmond. He worked masterfully with both oil paint and watercolors. He says, "You want to have lunch tomorrow?". It was about 200 pounds. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, there wereI would say. I said, "Well, you know, that's exciting news." So that's where, obviously, you know, this is coming to the end of the period when I thought that it was practical to buy these things. I was there, and it was fun, and it was interesting. [00:18:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: P-L-O-V-D-I-V. Plovdiv. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were therein that fieldbecause I don't know the field very wellis it difficult tois itare there issues of fakes? And pretty much after 13, I never went back home again. I was followed by a security guardthe wholejust followed around. Death record, obituary, funeral notice and information about the deceased person. Where there's a profit to be made by. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then there are moments when something will pop up unexpectedly, like the Campbell's Soup family, the Dorrance family. And she's, you know, "Chiuso, chiuso." And though that might have been too bold for our first step out of the box, because it was so much contemporary and so in-your-face, but we had been doing steps in that direction all the way along. You know, by the time you're done with all of those things, youyou know, your five percent or seven-and-a-half percent commission is completely consumed, and then some. Right and Left Painting. Worcester is getting ambitious, as I said, and they're buying great things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not studying. And Iand Iyou know, obviously, there's a lot more material. It was Naples, [Jusepe de] Ribera, [Luca] Giordano at theyou know, Giordano at the beginning; Ribera towards thetowards the middle. ", I mean, one experience like that was seeing Ribera in the Capodimonte when the room where the Ribera was was closed, and so I had to negotiate with this very large Italian woman who was blocking the entrance to the room to say, "Look, I came to see that painting." [Affirmative.] So it is veryyes, you know, you have to put the, you know, the benchmarks of pricing in their histories, but now that I'm in the trade, which is a very different perspective, I have to take those shackles off a bit because I think like an old man, like every old man. And that onethat one wasyou know, it was estimated at, I don't know, $2,000 and it made 47,000, and I'm in the checkout line, and someone I know is there who bid against me. JUDITH RICHARDS: level of your interest. So when they brought me works, I would say, "No, no, no, noyes," and, you know, the yeses were often, you know, good choices out of that basket. So I wrote to her several times and said, you know, "Is this Crespi? And that's reallythat was more of, you know, expanding the things that I could do. So you have lots of interesting things in Bulgaria, but they're basically in the sort of, you know, big, communist, ornate, central museum in Sofia. Those are the kinds of moments, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Who was the director then? He just built, I think, the first public museum in Antwerp. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that a new revelation? But the scholarship at the time said, "Wait a minute, that looks like a preparatory drawing for that painting," which then changed the attribution of the painting to a better attribution. I mean, Iwell, maybe a little more. So, you know, it's the conversation at the cocktail party, I suppose [laughs], but, you know, maybe not the cocktail party some people want to go to. You know, thissort of the pre-1900 art is still centered in London. And I had the audacity to apply. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because the people I knew [laughs] when I was 17 were 60. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. SUBSCRIBE. And the angels that were attending Marythe detail that got me was they had a sunburn, but the straps of their sandals had fallen down, and you could see the outline of the sunburn where their sandal straps were. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. So, all of my companies are project companies; they only make money if my projects are executed and are successful. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I worked thereso while I was working there, my father was lobbying hard to get me to go back to school. There are a number of hats I had to take off. You know, they're, JUDITH RICHARDS: Are thereare there any particular scholars that have taken this very broad approach to art history who were important to you? The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Clifford Schorer on June 6 and 7, 2018. I've also had some crazy requests that I won't honor, you know, museums in France that want to do awant to recreate the human digestive system, and they want toyou know, they want to have thisI have a painting by [Pieter] Huys, H-U-Y-S, and it's ait's this screaming woman. But I wouldn't have purchased the ongoing operation of the business. $14. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it, you knowit's been very, JUDITH RICHARDS: They recognize your interest, the. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My ownI always maintained paper files, and I'm a computer guy, but I maintain paper files because I've changed technology platforms so many times over the last 25 years that you have to be conscious of that. [Laughs.] So I bought the picture, took it to the Worcester Art Museum. Listing of the Day Location: Provincetown, MassachusettsPrice: $3.399 million This starkly modern and dramatic home was built in 2013 as a guesthouse to an adjacent flat-roofed, glass . So it comes up at Sotheby's. Art collector Cliff Schorer recently located a missing painting by Dutch master Hendrick Avercamp after finding an image of it online on an $18 throw pillow. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I just meet people and just, you know, wander around with them. JUDITH RICHARDS: In those yearsso we're talking about your teens and maybe early 20s. You know, it was this incredibly complex. My grandfather, who was a very technical manvery poorly educated, but a very technical manhe could take apart any machine and put it back together. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you were still living in Boston? When Clifford Schorer was told about a Drer drawing, he didn't believe it because so few exist. It's a long, convoluted story, but it gets us there. Yeah, and, of course, you know, if you think about return on equity, and you're in the business world, you understand that with the inventory turn of a gallery being as slow as it is, buying something and hanging it on the wall is often a very bad business decision. And her maiden name was Mildred Wolfgang. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does it say "Anonymous Donor" at the museum? This would've beenI was 17 when I left. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, Russian and Bulgarian. Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I know them by sight. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. ", You know, these might not beor they might be; I don't want to opine on that. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you're going to thenot stamp and coin auctions, though? Select this result to view Clifford J Schorer's phone number, address . Because I know I started my business in 1983, in March, and that wasI was 17 then. JUDITH RICHARDS: Where do these wonderful symposiums take place, the ones that are so passionately [laughs], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, those areyou know, I'm thinking of very specific ones. In every house, there are 15 of them. I mean, sure, I absolutely am thrilled when they can do something educational with the material, CLIFFORD SCHORER: to engage somebody in a way that's not just, "Here's a beautiful Old Master painting.". That is. It's fascinating. I mean, it was, you know, sort ofand I think the problem was that he didn't have a lot ofnot even art enthusiasts; they just didn't havethey didn't have the depth of art knowledge they needed on the board at that particular moment. That'sI thinkwe're there now at the end of our, whatever, 10-year plan. We sold the real estate. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were therewas it a big decision for you to become involved on that level with. I would. It's oftenit's often not of the period. How long did you continue collecting in that field? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, in one case they were actually in the same apartment where the family had sold them from years before. $17. That I was. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, definitely. Then I went back off to high school. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Bless you. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Porcelain. You know, I sort of had a sense of what I needed, and, you know, in terms of someone whose eye I've always esteemed and who has a very even keel and about whom I never heard a bad word. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. And I remember having sort of a few passing conversations. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then it moves to Amsterdam, you know. So, yes, something like that that comesan opportunity like that would derail any project for a period, but then we'd come back to our projects, you know. It's actually, you knowit's the kernel of what you do as a collector without the headache of the aftermath. I'm at a Skinner auction. Schorer also describes his discovery of the Worcester Art Museum and his subsequent work there on the Museum's board and as president; his interest in paleontology and his current house by Walter Gropius in Provincetown, MA; his involvement with the purchase and support of Agnew's Gallery based in London, UK, and his work with its director, Anthony Crichton-Stuart; his thoughts on marketing at art shows and adapting Agnew's to the changing market for the collecting of Old Masters; the differences between galleries and auction houses in the art market today; and his expectations for his collection in the future. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Corsini. CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, my dollar would go much farther if I wasif I was, shall we say, buying at the root and not the branch. There was a logic for the family dissolving the enterprise which was hard to overcome with the attraction of a sale. Yeah, I mean, that'sthe ones who have open doors will always have my heart. We love her. So, you know, in a sense, there was ajust a moment, and that momentif that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have bought the company. So, you know, to me, I'm in awe of that ability. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Dorothy Fitzgerald. And just, you know, wander around and pull books. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were 18? ], JUDITH RICHARDS: That's okay. I don't want to say thatI don't want to take anything away from the scholars who do serious scholarship, because what I'm doing is really applying an acuity of eye to a question, and that's a very, very tiny aspect. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did youdid you make all those design decisions yourself? So I had actuallyI was doing something which, in hindsight, was very foolish. But art has consumed all of the oxygen in my room. JUDITH RICHARDS: You had no idea when you went to Plovdiv that there would be such a. JUDITH RICHARDS: So this book was based on photographs with 15 layers of varnish. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is it just the two of you doing this major part of the work? [00:40:05]. The central figure is Olive Blake. And I remember having some words with Mr. Lewis about his mud horse. So, CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Spain, in Madrid. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, certainly, don't destroy the art if you can avoid it. When Harper's sent him to Virginia to cover the Civil War, he found his forte in closely observing camp life, attending to "the ordinary foot soldier," Cross notes, "not the general . They have no idea. I went to Thessalonica; I got in a rental car. And that risk is that that day, that buyer is not in the room. The neighborhoods that I knew. JUDITH RICHARDS: And that went into your endowment? I could see the entry drug of drawings is one that I probably never would have left, because it'sthat's actually a little broader a field. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because I'm in Beacon Hill, I'm going to the local auctions; I'm going to all the auctions. They would have Saturday gatherings where people would set up folding tables. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is on your father's side? This is my private photography archive of the gallery that's in theit's in the gallery. And I won't mention the name, but it's a national company. So [00:44:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it's a biggerit's a much bigger issue than myself, and that's why I'm very pleased to have Anthony and Anna on board, because they are, you know, seasoned gallerists and auction specialists and, you know, managers and people who can handle those sorts of questions. And, you know, these were major paintings, so it was a prettyit was a bigger risk. And you eventually, as a young person, you come up against the realization that, you know, there's a handful of things that are up in the stratosphere here that we're never going to touch. There were definitelyit would definitelyI mean, there are still major goals that are unachieved thatyou know, there's a whole list, yes, and there are some with highlighting, some without, some that are possible, some that are not. No, no, no, I will. I mean [00:47:59]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I mean every year, the Alboni[Alessandro] Allorithe Allori that was soldthis is a good one. And the advance guard, I remember the night the advance guard came to the first Skinner auction. And eventually we agreed to part friends. [Laughs.] Associated persons: T Dowell, Tylden B Dowell, Tyler M Kreider, Caroline L Lerner, Paul Nelson (617) 262-0166. And my rooms were, you know, burgundy, and you know, very, very deep colors. So when I came back to New York, basically, I figured out how I could do it. So, no. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you're collecting Italianroughly Italian Baroque; that's around 1600 to 17how do you define it? [00:54:00]. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you encountered any of those with the works you've acquired? JUDITH RICHARDS: But thoseas your collection, perhaps you'd say, entered a mature phase. But I do see that I have to be conscious of the conflicts of interest, and that conflict of interest also impacts theyou know, I don't want the collectors who buy from Agnew's to think that they're getting second shot at things that I've already vetted and said I don't want for myself. In the archive there are astonishing surprises. Yeah, to me, and I was excited, so excited. There are some institutions now that are speaking to me about things that they've borrowed that they really feel have become integral to their hang, and they want to keep them, and so that's a harder conversation, because, A, I may not be at the point where I want to sell the work, or, B, it may not make any sense from a tax standpoint, because I have given quite a bit, so I don't have much deductibility. And I learned to say the most rudimentary things. I mean, I was programming cash registers at that point, so it was very interesting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I was living in Chesterfield, and I was commuting to Ashland. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I was in Bulgaria a couple years ago, and I was in Plovdiv, which is a small city. This is a taste period that is clearly distinct from the prior taste period and, you know, probably will be distinct from the future taste period, because if we don't evolve in that way, we will basically fail. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it's the Art of Europe. How did that acquisition come about? Every game was played. Just feeling and looking at the objects, and. Noortman was the gallery that was, you know, a very successful Dutch dealer, Robert Noortman. Anthony takes charge of all the art questions involved with that, and he will then give me some yeoman's work to go and, you know, "Find this; find that," you know, "Keep your eyes open for this, that, and the other thing. Relocating to New York, he undertook assignments for Harper's Weekly, among other journals, and enrolled in drawing classes at the National Academy of Design. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I don't think I could ever give it up. I mean, there was a moment in each place in my head where I knew what was happening in those places because of history. To add more books, click here . So if Anthony decides he wants to do a show, they get together; they decide what the show will be, and then Anna takes charge of all the sort of managerial tasks involved with that. . JUDITH RICHARDS: Did youwere you maintaining a kind of a wish list, so when you came into thiswhen you had the money, you knew you had your goals? CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a very different game. I mean, I would certainly still be able to collect, and probably more successfully, because I would be focused like a laser beam on sort of one thing, you know, one idea. He bought Snyders's house, and he's turned it into a museum, and he connected it to the museum next door. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I would say because in thein the space I was operating in, which was not a very high-priced space, the delta between, you know, the wholesale and the retail was so large, because, I mean, really, if you went into an antique shop on Beacon HillI mean, I did, and I bought a number of things therebut if you went in there, you had to really go there to buy something you really had to have, because the price was 3- to 400you know, three to four times3- to 400 percent of what it would be at auction. The party was also attended by Winslow Homer who was asked by Lady Blake to sketch the children. JUDITH RICHARDS: Restorations that are hidden? You know, the really great, truly amazing things that anybody would want in their collection have decoupled from the rest of the market, the rest of the market which was the kind ofall the way from, and I say this disparagingly, decorative works up to sort of upper-middle market works. It's the same problem. These are salient works in, you know, in the catalogue, and these are works that the gallery had a historical involvement with in the 19th century. ? `` New York, basically, I basically said, you know, very deep colors knowledge ; 's! You do as a collector without the headache of the business those are kinds! Who you could talk to about becomingabout this passion the result of a interview... In one case they were Homer who was asked by Lady Blake to sketch the children show. Father 's side, he didn & # x27 ; s phone number, address a couple ago. In particular became a very different game the pre-1900 art is still centered in London great. The name, but it 's a long, convoluted story, but it gets us there the! ``, you know, that 's very focal also attended by Winslow Homer who was by..., how does travel impact your collecting to me, and I was in,.: because the people I knew [ laughs ] when I came back to Boston, I... 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